Curse

Zahra · Jun 26, 2010, 12:03 AM // 00:03

So, I'm going back to school this fall and my wonderful province's government gives out student loans to purchase a computer (max 2000$ CAD).

Here's my wish list :
- Must be able to play GW at max settings (in 1080p) with 70+ FPS in explorable areas
- Must be able to play GW2 at max settings (in 1080p) with 20-30 FPS in explorable areas
- Must be able to function at least as secondary (internet/word processing) comp until the computer is 5 years old.

I'm looking mostly at pre-mades that can be shipped in Canada, so this one , in standard configuration, almost no upgrades, looked interesting.

Is that realistic? If not, what kind of specs would make sense? (Forget about 1 TB HDD, unless you think it'll really take that to run and install the games and MS Office Suite. I'll be buying external HDDs and/or NAS soon.)

P.S. : I'll be buying the computer around September and if I have some leftover money from the 2000$, I still have other things on my wish list : a new colour laser printer, a new monitor, etc.).

moriz · Jun 26, 2010, 01:00 AM // 01:00

does the loan only cover for prebuilt machines, or can you use the money for individual parts? if the latter is true, i'd suggest you build it yourself, or get a friend to help you. that computer you linked is very overpriced.

Zahra · Jun 26, 2010, 01:06 AM // 01:06

They do say that the purchase must include a desktop or laptop computer, so just parts wouldn't work. A bare bones comp with upgrade parts would work, though.

moriz · Jun 26, 2010, 01:44 AM // 01:44

you can try getting a custom built machine from PCcyber. you'd get more performance per dollar that way.

Zahra · Jun 26, 2010, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

you can try getting a custom built machine from PCcyber. you'd get more performance per dollar that way.

No problem with getting the computer elsewhere, but then, I'd like to know which specs are necessary and which are just gravy.

As I said in my initial post :

Quote:

If not, what kind of specs would make sense?

Elder III · Jun 26, 2010, 03:17 AM // 03:17

do you already have a 1080p monitor or is that something you would like to get as well? Also, do you have an OS to install or do you need that pre-installed?

Lourens · Jun 26, 2010, 08:15 AM // 08:15

I would go for a Hexacore Intel and 2 5870 in Crossfire along with a 1000PSU,8gb ddr3 ram

Abedeus · Jun 26, 2010, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Oh dear God, that Alienware sucks badly. Who the hell puts a 56xx into a PC with i7?

Zahra · Jun 26, 2010, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elder III

do you already have a 1080p monitor or is that something you would like to get as well? Also, do you have an OS to install or do you need that pre-installed?

The OS I can do without as I still have a student license of Win 7 Pro 64-bit that I haven't used yet.

The monitor is something I'd like to buy within a year. Current monitor is Samsung 225BW (22", 1680x1050, cost 350$ back in the day) and about 3 years old. I'm seeing more and more HD monitors coming out at 200ish dollars, so they're not that expensive anymore.

Among other things that I can re-use :
- Bluray drive
- one of my existing HDD
- mouse, keyboard, speakers, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

I would go for a Hexacore Intel and 2 5870 in Crossfire along with a 1000PSU,8gb ddr3 ram

Ouch, 1000$ for the CPU alone? That's half the budget I'll have! (Unless, of course, a price drop is expected in the next few months or Intel releases a 6-core CPU that's cheaper than the i7 980X.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Oh dear God, that Alienware sucks badly. Who the hell puts a 56xx into a PC with i7?

Companies who try to sell to people who don't have a clue, I guess. Good thing I'm trying to get a clue!

So a 58xx would be better? If 2 5870 (as suggested above) are too expensive, I can always start with one and buy the second one later. I don't mind upgrading my rig as I go along, but some stuff are harder/more expensive to upgrade than others :
- CPU (because it may mean mobo as well, plus the inconvenience of unplugging everything and back again),
- RAM set (heck, they come in sets of 3 DIMMs now, so change one, change 3. For example, 3 x 4 GB DDR3 SDRAM is 350$+)

So I'd like to get these kind of elements right the first time.

Quaker · Jun 26, 2010, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahra

So a 58xx would be better?

I'd have to agree that that Alienware is an odd duck. You'd be better off to find something with an i5-750 or i7-860 cpu and a HD58xx (or nVidia equivalent) for gaming.
For example - http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/produ...5cfe980 3en02

Just about any new computer can handle the rest of your apps such as word processing, etc.

Snograt · Jun 26, 2010, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahra

- RAM set (heck, they come in sets of 3 DIMMs now, so change one, change 3. For example, 3 x 4 GB DDR3 SDRAM is 350$+)

Depends on the chipset (silly X58 compared to sensible H/P55). There are some amazingly kick-ass systems using dual- rather than triple-channel RAM.

Lord Sojar · Jun 28, 2010, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snograt

Depends on the chipset (silly X58 compared to sensible H/P55). There are some amazingly kick-ass systems using dual- rather than triple-channel RAM.

Like... OMG! THANKS! I knew you loved my system. Also...

Just to rub it in x58 users faces...

My memory read speed is 18636 MB/s

Write speed is 15993 MB/s

HUZZAH!

Snograt · Jun 28, 2010, 12:06 PM // 12:06

What - you mean I was right?

Wow, there's one to mark on the calendar

Zahra · Jun 28, 2010, 12:48 PM // 12:48

I think I'm getting a pretty good idea of the specs I should be looking for :

Good enough :
CPU : i5-750, i7-860 or better
GPU : ATI 58xx (or NVidia 260?) with 1GB RAM or better (how do those graphic card number work, anyway? is 5850 better than 5770? Is there a table of GPU numbering systems somewhere that I can use as a handy cheat sheet?)
RAM : 4GB+ DDR3 SDRAM
HDD : 500GB+, 7200rpm +

Da bomb (and totally out of price range):
CPU : i7 980x
GPU : Dual 1.5GB GDDR5 NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 480 - SLI Enabled
RAM : 12GB DDR3 1600MHz
HDD : 512GB RAID 0 (2x 256GB Solid State Drive)

What's the fuss about HDD Cache and RAM speed? I guess whatever is offered on the specs in the "good enough" section is okay, but what would be the advantage of more HDD cache or more RAM speed? (Hey, I may decide that good enough is just fine, but I'd like to know so I can justify the choice to myself.)

And one last question : what about liquid cooling? I've been told that it is very very silent, but that it needs maintenance and most local PC shops turn customers away from it because of the maintenance involved. Is the maintenance that difficult or that much of a hassle (compared to thoroughly cleaning fans every 9 months or so)?

Elder III · Jun 28, 2010, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahra

GPU : (how do those graphic card number work, anyway? is 5850 better than 5770? Is there a table of GPU numbering systems somewhere that I can use as a handy cheat sheet?)

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...deon,2646.html

read that and know that you can generally trust the information therein; it's based on price vs performance and prices will differ from country to countrey and/or retailer to retailer so be aware of that.

tijo · Jun 28, 2010, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elder III

[url]
read that and know that you can generally trust the information therein; it's based on price vs performance and prices will differ from country to countrey and/or retailer to retailer so be aware of that.

Prices do indeed vary from country to country. However, the difference between prices in the US and Canada is usually small and can go both ways in terms of which one is cheaper.

Quaker · Jun 28, 2010, 02:47 PM // 14:47

While you're checking out Tom's for graphics card rankings, you may as well check out CPUs as well:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...i-i5,2647.html

Quote:

What's the fuss about HDD Cache and RAM speed?

HDD cache can speed up some hard drive operations and more is usually better. But, the differences between one level of cache versus another - for example one drive with 8meg cache versus one with 16meg - are minimal, and you get to a point of diminishing returns.
The same sort of goes for RAM speeds too. Most new CPUs are spec'd to use DDR3-1333 RAM and going beyond ordinary "value RAM" or higher clocked RAM (DDR3-1600, etc.) makes very little difference in real-world performance - unless, of course, you plan to overclock your system.

Quote:

And one last question : what about liquid cooling?

Liquid cooling is really only necessary if you plan to heavily overclock your system - otherwise it's just extra stuff to go wrong. Even for most overclocking, a CoolerMaster Hyper 212+ does the job just fine - and is relatively inexpensive.
For normal non-OC'd use, the stock cooler is adequate, although the Intel ones are a bit small and let the cpu run hot, so a good after-market air cooler such as the CM Hyper 212+ is worthwhile.

Note, however, that there's nothing to say that you can't get into overclocking, liquid cooling, etc., for your own enjoyment.

Zahra · Jun 28, 2010, 03:46 PM // 15:46

I was talking with friends during the weekend and telling them that this computer would be an indulgence (the correct expression was "This, to me, is the equivalent of the guy who dreams to have Ferrari. And gets a shot at having it.").

Now, I know I won't spend 10k on a comp, so I won't get Da Bomb. However, talking about it here with you guys helps me pinpoint which parts are indulgence and which are just good purchase decisions. It helps me make sure I don't forget a part of the basic specs I need while I'm chasing after the indulgence part.

I don't know if I'll ever get into overclocking, but I can say I want an Alienware, even if it's overpriced for what I need, because I like the look of it (and not a look "like" it, but that exact look).

I may also not end up buying one, but going for something at a more reasonable price-point and getting more stuff to bring the house to a complete WiFi network (so WiFi compatible printer, NAS, etc.).

moriz · Jun 28, 2010, 04:42 PM // 16:42

there are also AMD hexcore CPUs, if you are interested in shaving off some costs. the phenom II x6 1090T generally go for around $300 USD. its performance, like all AMD processors, is very good given it's price. it's not going to touch the i7 980X, but for all intents and purposes, it's more than good enough.

i would strongly discourage you from ever getting an alienware. how the machine looks is generally meaningless, and two months from now, you're not even going to look at it except to turn it on/off and plug in stuff. getting pccyber or canadacomputers to custom build a machine for you remains your best option. depending on the wording of the requirement of your loan, you can even get a friend to form a "company" and build your machine for you, and you cash the check directly to your friend. after all, you just have to purchase a complete machine. it doesn't say anything about having to buy it from an actual company, does it?

Zahra · Jun 28, 2010, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i would strongly discourage you from ever getting an alienware. how the machine looks is generally meaningless, and two months from now, you're not even going to look at it except to turn it on/off and plug in stuff. getting pccyber or canadacomputers to custom build a machine for you remains your best option. depending on the wording of the requirement of your loan, you can even get a friend to form a "company" and build your machine for you, and you cash the check directly to your friend. after all, you just have to purchase a complete machine. it doesn't say anything about having to buy it from an actual company, does it?

Yeah, I know that the look of the PC is not really important and by the time I'm ready to plunk down the money for it, I'll be evaluating my purchase for the contents and not the looks. I just need to reconcile myself with the fact that I won't get the cute-looking PC.

I may end up building it myself or I may buy from a local Computer shop (the latter will still permit me to customize the build) instead of buying pre-made online (buying pre-made from bigger chains (such as Future Shop or Best Buy) was and still is out of the question).